Ep. 60 - Sexting: The New Foreplay

[00:10] What Is Sexting?

Dr. Bawa: Welcome to the Dr. Sex Fairy Podcast. I am Dr. Kanwal Bawa, America's favorite sex doctor, and I am here to transform your life. Today we are discussing sexting. It is often seen as something very dirty, but is it really, can it be good for a relationship? My guest today is Dr. Michelle Drouin, who is a professor of psychology at Purdue University, Fort Wayne and senior research scientist. She conducts research on sexuality, interpersonal relationships, and technology. Her book Out of Touch: How to Survive an Intimacy Famine was released recently and I have waited months to speak to her. Welcome, Dr. Drouin.

Dr. Drouin: Thank you so much Dr. Bawa. Thanks for having me on your show.

Dr. Bawa: So let's start with the very basic question. What is.

Dr. Drouin: Sexting is the sending of explicit material via some type of digital communication device. That could be words, it could be photos, it could be videos, even live sex streams where you're, you know, communicating with a partner via a video call could be considered sexting. So it's a pretty big umbrella.

[01:18] Who Is Sexting Most?

Dr. Bawa: Now, is it usually teenagers doing it or adults?

Dr. Drouin: So a lot of the research focused initially on teen sexting. People were all up in arms, are teen sending this. And actually I think the most sexting occurs among young adults cuz what you have in young adulthood is freedom from kind of parental guardianship. people have a little bit more spare time. And then also just, this is the time when people are most sexually active. You have. Rising of mobile phone use that occurs and there's like this standing wave of high cell phone use at around young adulthood. And then you also have a lot of sexual exploration. And although you might have more sex at different times of your life because you have a more committed partner, it's certainly a time of sexual exploration for people are exploring who they are, you know who they like, what they. So I think young adulthood is really the time when people are sexting the most often, and it tends to peter out a little bit as couples get more committed. We've studied sexting. My, my co-author Brandon McDaniel and I have looked at sexting as people get older and really they're much more likely to send messages like, can you pick up some milk than. You know, how are you gonna do me tonight?

Dr. Drouin: So sexting really does take on a different flavor in adult committed relationships.

Dr. Bawa: Well, that's true. The nitty gritties of everyday life seem to get in the way of some good fun sometimes. So

Dr. Drouin: they absolutely do.

[02:57] How Common Is Sexting Among Adults?

Dr. Bawa: So I was just wondering how many adults are doing this?

Dr. Drouin: In a study that we did, I think about five years ago, it was actually pretty low. I think it was about 10. Married adults, and I think their average age was in their thirties. I think for people who didn't grow up in a digital generation, it wouldn't be as natural for them to send sexting photos to each other. But for younger generations, I mean, more than half of my young adults are sexting. So not only are they saying I've sexted, they've sexted with 30 50 partners, and these aren't clinical samples of people who have, you know, psychological issues. These are just normal adults who are in college classes who are saying, yeah, I've sexted. And it's a regular part of the way I initiate relationships and maintain relationships with my partners. And remember, you know, the umbrella of sexuality has certainly expanded over the past couple of decades, so we no longer. You're in, you're either single or you're in a really committed relationship. Now there's this entire rainbow of romantic connections. So you can have one night stands and you can have friends with benefit relationships, and you can have polyamorous relationships, and you can be nonsexual.

Dr. Drouin: You know, you have all of these different options that I think when I was growing up, weren't really considered. So as we look more and more into the research on different types of sexuality and how sexting is used, you can see. It is a way to maintain all kinds of relationships.

[04:39] The Different Forms of Sexting

Dr. Bawa: So just to clarify, what are the different forms of sexting?

Dr. Drouin: People could be sending, uh, sexually explicit. You have no doubt that this is a sexting photo, like nude or nearly nude Photos are one of the ways that we distinguish it in the literature, and those are like traditional sexting photos. Or videos and then just really sexually explicit words, delineating maybe what someone wants to do sexually, and those are types of sexting. But then we've also asked people about like just romantic communications. And although that might necessarily be considered under the umbrella of sexting, depending on your definit, It could be, and depending on the couple that could be as well. So you also have things of more of a romantic or suggestive nature. And sometimes, depending on the definition, people include those too.

[05:31] Can Sexting Help a Relationship?

Dr. Bawa: Can sexting actually be good for an adult relationship?

Dr. Drouin: I've been trying to figure this out for years, Years ago when I first started doing the sexting research, there was an article that came out that basically suggested this could be used for couples who wanna reignite their sex life. So let's say a couple comes into a therapist and they're having sexual dysfunction, or they're just feeling disconnected sexually and they want to. Spice up their sex life, or they wanna have a stronger intimate relationship. One of the people who wrote an article on this years ago said, maybe sexting could be used for these couples. It could maybe increase their intimacy. And they did this very small scale study and said, look, it increased this type of intimacy in these couples. But then years and years of research where my colleagues and I, we, I did a paper with Adam Galovan and Brandon McDaniel, and we looked at sexting profiles of adults who all, they all had at least one child, and they were in committed relationships. So it didn't have to be a marriage, but it had to be some type of partnership. And we put all of these variables into an equation.

Dr. Drouin: So positive things like, um, sexual satisfaction, marital satisfaction, life satisfaction, uh, and then a couple of negative things like conflict and porn use and argues over technology. And we wanted to see, when we throw these all into this big model, what are the characteristics that really are related to sext? And they did some really complex analyses. These co-authors I work with are pretty spectacular, and they found that there are people who sexted a lot in their relationships. So there are some adults who are in marriages who sexted a lot, and there are some that sex very little. And there are some people who are kind of in the middle, some who only send kind of words. And so these are like word only sectors. Anyway, so we ended up with these four different profiles of people who sexted. And what they found was actually the only thing that these frequent Sexts had that was positive was more sexual satisfaction. But there were a host of really negative things that were also related to sexting, like conflict, ambivalence in their relationship, meaning like they didn't. They weren't sure if they were going to stay or go. They also had more conflict of our technology use. There was usually more porn addiction.

Dr. Drouin: Um, so, and more anxious or avoid attachment, some more attachment issues in the relationships. So even when we've done some pretty complex analyses, hoping to find, hey, maybe there are some benefits for some. It doesn't really work out like that. So although I would say the focus has been in the literature more on the negatives associated with sexting, what I will also say is statistically that's what emerges. So it's not necessarily that a researcher goes in thinking sexting is bad, and I'm going to prove it. We just wanna see what's related to sexting and some negative correlates often.

[08:50] Sexting and Sexual Satisfaction

Dr. Bawa: I came across a study titled “Reframing sexting as a positive Relationship Behavior,” which found that 88% of the participants had sexted and it found that greater levels of sexting were associated with greater levels of sexual satisfaction for those in a relationship. What are your thoughts about.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah, I mean, I think that sexting can be related to sexual satisfaction, but it sometimes this, this study that you're talking about kind of looked narrowly at a couple of different factors was this study that I talked about with Adam Galovan and Brandon McDaniel and I, we looked at a whole host of factors and didn't just. You know, have you sexted it or not, or how often you sexted? We really delineated between different kinds of sexting behaviors and let the data speak for themselves. So the, I'm really trusting in the process that my co-authors used in order to find what we found. So, although there were some early suggestions that maybe sexting could be positive, I'm not really sure that it has any positive effect beyond some potential for sexual satisfaction increases. But as you know, sexual satisfaction does not necessarily mean that a couple is satisfied or that one is satisfied in their life. And I think those are the extra steps that kind of need to be looked at when you're examining the positives or potential positives for a couple.

[10:19] Sexting, Secrecy and Infidelity

Dr. Bawa: Have you noticed that people who sex also cheat?

Dr. Drouin: Um, we didn't actually look at that in our study, but we did. There was another study that I did with Brandon McDaniel and another author of mine where we were examining online infidelity behaviors. So online infidelity behaviors are a host of things you could be doing online that you don't want your partner to know. And so sexting could be one of those things, but as could just communicating, sharing kind of a, a just an intimate relationship. Even emotionally intimate relationship with someone online. And although it's not necessarily that people who sexted would be being unfaithful, um, when you are using the internet to do something. Sexy, you know, or romantic, then it does increase the likelihood that you would be less likely to show it to your partner. And I mean, infidelity is the, I guess, the hallmark of infidelity. Is the fact that you're not showing someone or you're not sharing with your partner that this is what you're doing. So I think that what it does is it opens a potential avenue for you to communicate with others in a sexual way that's pretty covert. No one really sees it, and you can keep it quite hidden from your partner.

Dr. Drouin: My, my answer is kind of long and convoluted, but the point is, if you are sexting with people, it might be included as one of the unfaithful behaviors that can eventually, you know, come up in your relationship as a not so positive thing.

[11:58] When Sexting Becomes a Public Scandal

Dr. Bawa: There was that New York politician, I can't remember his name offhand. He lost his entire career, was sending, uh, penis pictures.

Dr. Drouin: Anthony Weiner.

Dr. Bawa: Anthony Weiner. Yes. What a what? A what A sad. For a man with his, uh, proclivity. Uh, how appropriate though? Yeah. So he lost an entire career over this nonsense and his family.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah, and I, I believe actually it happened twice. I mean, I think that he was sexting and he was sexting. Again, I, I see the appeal in it. One of the things that I think if people want to be unfaithful, But they don't, they don't want to actually meet up with someone and they don't want to have actual sex with someone. Then maybe sexting seems like a lower risk behavior. You obviously are not actually having physical sex, so you avoid chance of, um, Sexually transmitted infection, you avoid the chance of impregnating someone. Like there are a couple of things that maybe make it seem like a lesser risk, but the problem is once you send those photos, as anyone who has been caught in a sexting scandal can tell you they're, they're potentially forever. The person who receives them has them, and now you kind of are at their mercy, which is why I think a lot of people have. Regret or shame associated with photos that they've sent in the past because they really don't know what's going to happen with those now that I'm like no longer with that person and you have to really have a lot of faith in your partner.

Dr. Drouin: It's interesting because that almost makes physically meeting up with someone a little less risky. Provided you use whatever protections you'd like to use, um, because you then don't have the evidence that could exist forever. So I, I mean, it's interesting to me when people get con sexting scandals because we know everyone is aware that the internet has this longevity. And yet they still send these things to people that could be potentially really damaging. I, I can see the appeal initially, but if people really think about it, it leaves, leads, leaves a strong trail that is very hard to disappear.

[14:19] Novelty, Dopamine and Digital Desire

Dr. Bawa: I mean, look at what happened to Jeff Bezos and more recently, Adam Levine.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah. I mean, ugh. Yeah. When I saw the things about Adam Levine it, they're definitely, they definitely happen. It's interesting though, because I do think it is so easy to do. It's really. People are attracted to novelty. People want new things. It activates this dopaminergic pathway in our brain where it floods us then with dopamine. And dopamine feels good, as you know. So when we have something novel and sexually novel, it turns us on. And if anyone, like, if your listeners think about the first time they were touched by their partner, The first few times they met up or had intimate moments with their partner and they think about. Physiologically how that felt comparing to how they feel now. You know, if you've been with your partner for a month, a year, a decade, it just feels different because it's not as novel. It could still feel very, very good. And I think in a lot of ways, people's sex lives improve over the course of their relationship because they get to know each other as sexual partners. Those initial physiological reactions to novelty, they really fade over time. So I think what these sexting, kind of scandals illustrate is that people are looking for that novel sexual stimulation. They like new partners.

Dr. Drouin: They, it awakens in them a feeling that they may not have with their existing partner. And people like to feel sexually attracted to others and feel that other people are sexually attracted to them, and it's really easy to find on the internet really easy.

[16:04] Building Intimacy in Long-Term Relationships

Dr. Bawa: Your book talks about intimacy, so what do you think couples should do to enhance intimacy in a long term? Relat.

Dr. Drouin: Well, I mean, intimacy. Well, let me first describe intimacy. So intimacy is more than just sex intimacy. I think when a lot of people think about it, they think about having sex with someone, and it can be that, and I think sexuality is an important part of intimacy, but it's also social intimacy. You know, spending time together with friends, going out and doing things you enjoy. There's intellectual intimacy, you know, sharing your. Ideas with someone talking about intellectual topics, there's experiential intimacy, so having no experiences. So there are lots of ways to keep an intimate connection with a long-term partner. Sexual intimacy is actually something that's really important to a lot of people. Many, many people who are in long term relationships go through ebbs and flows in terms of their sexual attraction to their partner, their sexual activity, to with their partner. As we get older in relationships, sexual activity tends to go down for a lot of reasons. Some are biological, so our bodies may not respond in the way they did before. Um, they just, things that used to feel good may not feel good anymore as people age, but also it's habituation, you know, the more I'm. Accustomed to this partner, maybe the less it excites me.

Dr. Drouin: I think in order to keep sexual intimacy in a relationship, couples just have to really make a commitment that that's something that. They value in their relationship and some people don't. Some people actually, their sexual intimacy is a small part of what makes them function as a couple. For other people, it's really important, but it's a discussion I think that couples need to have with each other so they can establish, you know, this is what we believe in terms of the importance of a sex life. And this is how we're going to commit to it and make sure that we meet those goals. Just like any goals, they could just be like savings goals or, you know, amount of time we're spending together as a family. You know, they, so many people have date nights. And I think if people committed to sex nights, like that would also be something that they could commit to, to strengthen their relationships. So I think that date nights are, a good example. Commitments couples tend to make to each other that they could do for sexual intimacy, but I don't, just don't think a lot of people do it.

[18:51] Setting Boundaries Around Sexting

Dr. Bawa: Let's talk about boundaries. How does somebody set those boundaries of yay or nay? I'm okay with it or no, I'm not comfortable with this.

Dr. Drouin: I think the key to this is communication. Like any relationship, whether their relationship is new or longstanding, people need to have open and frequent communications about what they do and don't want in terms of all of their sexual activity. And I consider sexting a sexual activity. It's not necessarily just a prelude to sexual activity. You know, they say that people sex for fun, for flirtation and for foreplay. The three Fs of sexting, fun, flirtation, and foreplay. But there are lots of other reasons that people sex and it's not necessarily. A prelude to sex. It could just be a replacement to sex. It could be, Hey, I'm thinking of you and therefore I'm gonna say something sexy, cuz I know that you like it and I like it too. So I think that these have to be early and often conversations. And if someone sends you a sexting picture or some words, you need to kind of evaluate where am I in this relationship? Do I feel comfortable and safe? Is this something I wanna do? And if it isn't, then you. Like you can blankly say, I don't sexting. From my perspective, actually, sexting is a little bit cliche, so I have, I have a pretty strong opinion about it.

Dr. Drouin: Um, not only do I think it's pretty risky and for anyone who wants to someday be in the public spotlight, it's just a. A very big potential negative. It's something that you could worry about if you knew that you were going to be subjected to public scrutiny. Um, but not only is it risky, but it also, I've seen so much sexting and I just think there's nothing that you've said or you could say it would be any different than what any 18 year old says to anyone In fact, I remember reading about. Um, when Adam Levine's sext messages were being scrutinized on, I think Twitter, someone said by, through reading these messages, I find, I found out that I too sex like a 14 year old boy or something like that. So like the content of these sext messages were even being criticized and it just, I just think that there's, there's a consistent theme through all of it, and. I think one way for people to say I'm just not into it is to say, it's just really cliche. It's just there's probably nothing we could say to each other that hasn't been said before. Like, I, I find it all a little bit boring.

Dr. Drouin: Um, I'm gonna say something too about romantic sexting in a second. But, so I think just sexting in general, there's some consistent themes. They emerge often having looked at thousands and thousands of text messages and text messages that people send to each other. For me, it just seems like there's nothing that anyone could say. That hasn't been said or sent. Um, so that could be a good way to say to a partner, Hey, like this traditional sexting thing doesn't really work for me cuz I just think it's so cliche. Um, however, let's say you're on the opposite spectrum and you really want that in your relationship. You could maybe sentence some sexy words. They don't necessarily have to be sexting, but like they could be alluding to the idea that you wanna get sexual via your words first before you send a picture. I will tell you that nobody wants to receive an unsolicited. Picture of someone's penis. I mean, it's, it, it's almost, I think, shocking or offensive to a lot of women. So you have to, or men potentially as well. You have to kind of ease into that if that's what you want. So let me rephrase. I don't think nobody wants to receive them. There are probably some people who.

Dr. Drouin: Exceptionally delighted However, it should be in your mind that this isn't something that I should just send right away. So I think if you want to have that, just easing people into it or saying, you know, I miss you and I wanna see you, and what kinds of things might we do tonight? And asking them to maybe talk about it and seeing how comfortable they are will then help you understand. The other thing that I'd recommend to people if they wanna sex is to use a channel where they can delete messages. You know, those destroy after reading apps. You think about Snapchat and things like that as only being used for kids. Okay? But they're not only used for kids. And if you're going to send something that's highly sensitive, especially to a partner you don't know, well those destroy after reading apps might be the way to go. And I know that even. The apps like Instagram has a possibility of disappearing messages. Facebook has disappearing messages, so you don't even have to use Snapchat anymore. Almost all of the popular social media apps have that feature.

Dr. Drouin: So that's another thing I would suggest to people if you're going to sex to do it in a way, um, that kind of assures you or gives you some assurance. The photo then disappear. So the words disappear. You if you're quick on the uptake,

[20:14] Why Sexting Can Feel Cliché

[22:17] How to Ease Into Sexting

[23:33] Disappearing Messages and Digital Risk

Dr. Bawa: You can take a screenshot before it disappears.

Dr. Drouin: Yes, you can, but I. When people send things using disappearing messages, um, they expect, there's kind of like an unspoken expectation that people are not going to screenshot. They can do it, but they'll oftentimes you get notified, like you do get notified in Snapchat unless someone's you some kind of external app. So I think that people generally stick to those. I'm also talking about adult relationships. I'm not talking about teenagers here because teenagers are, are not. Well, there are a lot of laws related to teenage sexting, so I'm talking about adult sexting. I just think a lot of adults in those apps would have expectations that the other person is going to respect it if they want that message to disappear.

[25:26] Revenge Porn and Broken Trust

Dr. Bawa: Yet you see revenge porn and all kinds of things.

Dr. Drouin: You do. I mean, I don't know that revenge porn that that's often, like someone sent it via Snapchat and someone screenshotted it. I think with revenge porn, what you often have are people who are entrusting relationships with each other and were using channels that did not have the destroy after reading feature. They trusted an individual and then that individual betrayed their. So I think that that's another reason. I mean, I think you probably know as someone who examines sex and examines relationships, we go into relationships thinking or hoping that they last for a long time or forever. I mean, we go in with pretty high hopes that they are great. But as you probably have learned through all of your studies, it, it's not all relationships are. Some end and some end very badly. And I think people just need to kind of temper their optimism when they go into relationships so that they know that there's a potential that this could end badly. And if it does, do I feel secure that this person has my, as my, as my nude, which actually I just did an interview for this, for an article in the cut.

[26:47] Should You Delete an Ex's Nudes?

Dr. Drouin: Someone asked, is it okay to keep your ex's nudes? When you break up, what do you think?

Dr. Bawa: I think it's probably best to delete those.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah. So what, what would be your reason behind it? Because there's no, there's no like socially accepted convention. There's nothing in society that says, here's the rule. So what makes you feel that way?

Dr. Bawa: I think if you're closing that chapter— If you're ending that chapter, I think it's best to do that. That's just my reasoning.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah. I said something really similar. I said, although there's no socially accepted convention, I think it does help you really close a chapter. I also, cuz then I was asked a little bit further, well how is it different? So I guess I'll post this to you to see where you land on this.

Dr. Drouin: How's it different than if a lover gives you a necklace or um, a book? Would you necessarily give those back?

Dr. Bawa: No, because it doesn't compromise them.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah. Okay. That's, that's exactly what I said too. So that's what, that's generally the way I feel. What I said was, it's almost like giving someone your diary to read. And then after you break up, they're like, I'm keeping it Yeah. And you're like, wait a second. I was just actually this, this was actually just on loan while we were together. You can see these deepest, darkest, intimate parts of me. I'm not expecting you to keep it forever, but yeah, so they interviewed a few of us and we kind of came out on different sides of the coin, but mine was the same as yours. I think that those are things that should be deleted when you break up with a partner.

Dr. Bawa: Yet many keep them as, uh, you know, participation trophies or something.

Dr. Drouin: They keep them because they like having them and they revisit those. I've talked to people about that.

Dr. Bawa: Oh, have you?

Dr. Drouin: And what have they said?

Dr. Bawa: They just see no reason to delete.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I'm from an older generation, so I'm gonna be 49, so I'm not digital native. And I think maybe some of my views are not reflective of what millennials think, but I, I feel the same. I feel they should be deleted. I know that some people keep them maybe as troph. but also as nice reminders of the relationship maybe. You know, it is a type of personalized pornography, which I always think is very interesting. The pornographic world really drives a lot of internet content, and I think that the sexting has this appeal because not only is it pornography, but it's pornography that someone made typically just for. So it feels special. It's, it's, I guess visually. Pardon? I said it's thrill. Yeah. Yes, it's visually interesting and it is thrilling that someone did this entirely for you. So that personalized pornography, I think people are like, well, I'll just keep it as part of my collection and then instead of viewing regular pornography, why not just revisit this? And, you know, it's probably sparks really good feelings of when you were sexual with that person. I understand why people might wanna keep those photos, but I do think it's in the best interest of everyone to just delete them

[30:17] Do Gym and Bathroom Selfies Count?

Dr. Bawa: since you are an expert in the whole realm of sexting. Let me ask you a question. Do sweaty gym selfies and bathroom selfies qualify as sexting if you're not seeing penises or vaginas?

Dr. Drouin: Yeah, I mean, under the big umbrella of sexting, Yeah, anything that is sexually explicit. So if I'm bending over and showing my cleavage, that could be sexting. If I, um, have picked up my shirt and to show you my abs, that could count as sexting. So it really depends on what you're looking at in terms of your outcome measures. But I've included anything that is at all. Has a sexual tone as sexting, but there's another category of sexting like that. I haven't really, that no one really does, but I think could be this entire sexting revolution, but like romantic sexting, which I said I'd wanna talk about. I think that one of the things that. I now kind of think about as sexting is just the flirtation that people have with one another. And it could be intellectually flirtatious, it could be, um, just provocative. It could be sending quotes that have a romantic nature and they are meant to excite, they are meant to be intriguing. Um, A little bit romantic because you're heading down kind of a level of intimacy, but they're not explicitly sexual.

Dr. Drouin: So I think that that would go in the same category as like the sweaty Jim selfie, just something that's supposed to intrigue you, but not necessarily explicitly sexual.

[31:54] Romantic Sexting and Digital Permanence

Dr. Bawa: It's funny because I often joke. Your relationship may not last, but herpes is forever. So now, yeah. I guess I have to add that whole sexting thing to it as well. Your relationship may not last, but those texts will live forever.

Dr. Drouin: Exactly. I mean, I just gave this lecture to my students the other day. I was talking to them about syphilis and we were talking about, uh, well, we are also talking about herpes. And I was saying how, and I saying how. Things do. You know, you, you have some things that are curable in terms of STIs, but some that are not. And I was thinking I need to talk to them about sexting. And then I didn't because it wasn't included in the slide. And I thought this is way too long of a conversation and it almost sounds, uh, You know, it's not, it was, it would not have been traditional education the way that I wanted to educate my students, but really there is this entire line of research about it.

[33:02] Unwanted but Consensual Sexting

Dr. Drouin: I think the most concerning thing is that so many people sexted when they're uncomfortable. So like half people have sexted in times when they were uncomfortable sexting. They still. But they were uncomfortable doing it. And that feeling of discomfort then makes them feel later on traumatized if, especially if they didn't wanna do it in the first place, particularly for women. So we asked women, this is actually really interesting. We asked women who had either participated in unwanted but consensual sex. So I don't know if you know. About half of people, if you ask them college age students and beyond, HA will say that they've had consensual sex that they didn't want in the last couple of weeks.

Dr. Bawa: Really? So it's super common. Yes. Who knew someone could have said, Hey, you wanna sex? And they're like, yeah, but they didn't really wanna have sex. They just did it.

Dr. Drouin: So I think it happens a lot in relationships when people are in committed relationships. They have sex, but they didn't really feel it. They didn't really want it. I mean, I think it's really hard to synchronize your sexual rhythm so that a two partners are always ready for sex at the same. So I think it's probably more of just a misalignment in the rhythms of want more than just, this person never wants to have sex with this other person. So I think that's where a lot of the unwanted sex comes into play. I then asked people these. Men and women have. You had unwanted but consensual sexting, meaning you did it but you didn't really wanna do it. And then I asked them how traumatic was it at the time, and how traumatic do you find it? Now looking back on it, and the really interesting thing was that women, but not for men, had significantly more trauma. Now, looking back on the event when it was unwanted sext, Than they did for even unwanted sex. So they found both to be, you know, slightly traumatic. But over time that unwanted, but consensual sexting was really traumatic for women in comparison to unwanted but consensual sex.

Dr. Drouin: And I think the reason why is because you have this photographic evidence. And you're not comfortable. You didn't want it, you're not happy. This relationship probably ended and you didn't want to send the photo in the first place.

[35:35] Is Sexting the New First Base?

Dr. Drouin: Now we have a really great understanding of what sexting is, and I guess you might even call it the new first base.

Dr. Drouin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of my colleagues who studied sexting in teenagers coined it the new first base, which I found terrifying because I thought, Ugh, I can't believe that this is the new first base. I really do think people just need to be very careful. Sexting is a really dangerous place, and then causes, or has the potential to cause some really serious harm when these photos or even words, Used against a person. So, although I think some people find it really exciting and fun, there's a big downside in that it could really be, uh, negative in a person's life as well.

[36:24] Where to Find Dr. Michelle Drouin

Dr. Bawa: Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, and I'm sure that our listeners want to know how to find you.

Dr. Drouin: Well, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, people can follow me on Twitter at Dr. Andreen or on Instagram at Dr. Michelle Drouin. and I look forward to, you know, hearing from anyone who wants to talk about this, just instant mess. Like follow me and then you can get into my dms and, um, we can chat about these topics.

Dr. Bawa: It was great to talk to you today.

Dr. Drouin: It was so great to talk to you. Thank you so very much for coming on the podcast.

Dr. Bawa: Thank you.