Ep. 52 - Shocking Sex Secrets of the Amish

[00:08] Shocking Sex Secrets of the Amish

Dr. Bawa: Welcome to the Dr. Sex Fairy Podcast. I am Dr. Kanwal Bawa, America's favorite sex doctor, and I am here to transform your life. Today's discussion is going to be one of the most shocking we have ever had on this show. It may trigger emotions deep within you, but it is a discussion that is very important and long overdue. Today we are discussing the shocking sex secrets of the Amish. The Amish escaped religious persecution in Europe and mostly settled in Ohio and Pennsylvania. They are seen as very utopian. They are a tiny community numbered approximately 375,000 in the US, but are growing rapidly due to the number of children each couple is having. They have the highest fertility in the world. Their population doubles every 20 years.

Dr. Bawa: They seem untouched by modern technology, the rat race, as it were. And to many of us, that level of contentment is almost aspirational. But what is actually happening behind the doors of those farmhouses and inside those buggies? Do they really have sex with animals? How common is incest? Are fathers having sex with their daughters? What are the consequences of cheating? What about premarital sex? Does feminism exist in the Amish? Is their life really how it appears? Are they as content as they seem? Stay tuned till the end. This episode is going to blow your mind.

[01:53] Meet the Guests

Dr. Bawa: Today I have not one, but three guests. All three have walked away from their Amish community. Each for their own reason. Rachel Hirschberger Hawley founded the Amish Rescue Mission. She left the Amish at 16. Eli Yoder calls himself the preaching truck driver who gives victims a voice. He is a social media personality, and the reason I discovered Amish Rescue Mission in the first place, he left the Amish at 18. Rachel Detweiler and her husband left the Amish together about 10 years ago when she was 25. Both Eli Yoder and Rachel Detweiler work with the Amish Rescue Mission to save others from their fate.

Dr. Bawa: Welcome everyone.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: Thank you for having us.

Dr. Bawa: Thank you so much for being here. I know that I have questions and you have answers. Let's start with you, Eli. You said in your TikTok video that you saw several friends and family members having sex with animals. If anyone said that they saw a single person doing that, it would be shocking. You saw it several times. How common is it to have sex with animals in the Amish community?

[03:01] Sex With Animals in an Old Order Amish Community

Eli Yoder: Yes, it was actually more common in our Old Order Amish community. It was kind of something that as a teenager, I heard some of my friends joking around about it, different things they tried. And then I witnessed it for myself several times. And there was kind of one of those things where, you know, we looked at it as kind of funny at the moment. And then it didn't really stay as just a teenager or young people. It also involved married grown men who had families of 10 to 12 children and would confess their sins in front of the church with these kind of sexual acts with animals. I remember an Amish man where he had a broken leg and the Amish did question him why his leg was broken.

Eli Yoder: And at first he didn't want to admit it, but then later he confessed that he wanted to confess the sin before the church that he was standing on a five-gallon bucket behind a horse performing a sex act and the horse kicked, and that is why his leg was broken. So in my particular Old Order community, it was actually more common than what you would probably think.

[04:03] How the Church Handles Sexual Misconduct

Dr. Bawa: And how does the church handle this issue?

Eli Yoder: Usually when somebody confessed a sin, something like that with animals, it was usually around four weeks in the ban. The ban means that is a period where you kind of isolate yourself and the church will not allow you to eat any meals with other church members that were baptized, and that includes family members as well. Once that period is up, they kind of make you feel ashamed. When that period is up, the church votes for your forgiveness. Every vote has to be yes. And when they get to where every vote is yes, then that person is then forgiven and taken back into the church.

Dr. Bawa: So young boys and married men alike are doing this.

Eli Yoder: Yes, in my community, it was young boys and men, grown men, adults alike. Yes.

Dr. Bawa: Interesting, because you would think that perhaps it's younger boys who don't have access to a sexual partner that would do it. But apparently it's a thing with everybody. I mean, with all ages, not with everybody. I know that you come from the most orthodox Amish community there is, and that you had no sex education whatsoever. How has that affected your relationship since?

[05:13] Growing Up With No Sex Education

Eli Yoder: Yeah, it actually greatly affected my relationships, you know, and also that is one of the reasons why we joked around about the animal sex and stuff, because we didn't have that education. Now, after I left the Amish, it that also affected me greatly because I didn't know how to fulfill a woman's need. So when I first left the Amish, obviously I struggled having a relationship because we just weren't educated. I had to learn all of those things. So it was very much a struggle to try to learn everything that I needed to do to try and please a woman because I didn't have any kind of affection that I saw from my parents and they didn't educate us even where babies come from. And all the way up until I was ready to leave the Amish, I did not even know how babies are born.

Dr. Bawa: So you were 18 years old and didn't know where babies came from?

Eli Yoder: That is correct.

[06:05] Masturbation, Puberty, and Confusion

Dr. Bawa: Now let's talk about masturbation. How common is that with the Amish?

Eli Yoder: In our Old Order Amish community, we actually didn't even know what masturbation was. The first time I heard the word masturbation was after I left the Amish. Since they didn't teach any sex education, they never used that word. And so that is also one of the reasons why we didn't recognize that as masturbation when there was some kind of act taking place between us buddies, you know, with animals or whatever it may be. We didn't view that as masturbation. We didn't know what that was.

Dr. Bawa: So basically, as a teenager, you were very confused about what was even happening with your body.

Eli Yoder: That is correct. We did not understand hormones until after I left the Amish. I realized there was a time in your life called puberty. And I remember asking mom a few times when I would wake up in the morning, I said, Hey, why is this way? Why is my underwear this way? And she said, That is for later when you get married, when you get older, and then that will be explained by the bishop, which is at marriage day, explain those things. But I didn't get my I did not get my answer when I asked my mother.

Dr. Bawa: So, what do they tell you on the day of marriage?

[07:16] Sex Education on the Wedding Day

Eli Yoder: On the day of marriage, that is when they actually educate the man and the woman together. They go off to the side, lots of times upstairs with the elders and the bishop, and they will tell them how a baby is made, how a baby is, you must have intercourse to bring a child into the world, and it's nine months, and all of those things get explained. And in the very old order conservative groups like where I come from, that is also when they explain to them to wait at least three days after they're married to even have sex. So there are religious reasons for that, but I'm not sure exactly what all those reasons would be. I just know that they would tell them to wait at least three days. But all of the sex education starts at that point on the wedding day.

[07:57] Dating in Different Amish Communities

Dr. Bawa: So, what's dating like in the Amish world?

Eli Yoder: I left at 18 and did not date a girl, but my twin brother did. That was very different from some of the New Order because we were always told we had to go to her house and we had to let the parents know. So the mom and dad would have to supervise the date, and you had to sit across from the table from one another and have a conversation. And that was your date. There was no hugging, there was no kissing, there was no saying I love you, because all of all three of those things were considered of the world and way too sexual.

Dr. Bawa: Interesting. Rachel D, let's have your take on this.

Rachel Detweiler: I grew up dating in the Amish, and as far as my community, every Sunday night, all the youth would get together and we would have a singing, and then after that, the boy was supposed to go ask the girl if he liked her, he would go, or he would send someone and ask her to go on a date. And we were supposed to sit downstairs in a lit room with maybe a little oil lamp or basically something that burns like a candle on the couch. And the curfew was the boy leaves at 12 o'clock. That was the first date. And whatever could have happened on that first date, it could vary from talking to not talking to kissing to hugging to canoodling, whatever you want to call it, to having sex.

Rachel Detweiler: And from my experience growing up with the abuse that I grew up with for that was one thing that I that I knew to do was have sex with guys. And was that the right way? No. But as far as the dating goes, there are so many differences; each community has a different standard on their dating.

Dr. Bawa: How young do the Amish tend to get married?

[09:46] Marriage, Premarital Sex, and Bed Courtship

Rachel Detweiler: That varies from also one community to the other, but a lot of them by the time you hit 20, you should you're expected to be getting married.

Dr. Bawa: Is premarital sex an absolute no-no in some of the more orthodox Amish communities?

Rachel Detweiler: Premarital sex would be an absolute no-no in all of them. They would never encourage their children to have premarital sex. But then again, I have family members live in a community where they do they have bed courtship. They literally go to bed together on their first date. That's how they date. But yet they're expected to not have premarital sex. And if premarital sex happens and they get pregnant, they automatically have to marry that person. It doesn't matter if they really want to get married, they're forced into joining the church and getting married.

Dr. Bawa: Do the Amish use birth control?

[10:44] Birth Control and a Wife’s Sexual “Duty”

Rachel Detweiler: Absolutely not. That's a big no-no, especially in the Old Order Amish where I grew up in.

Dr. Bawa: So sex is for procreation, not recreation.

Rachel Detweiler: Yes. And if it doesn't matter if the woman is dead beat, worn out, tired, by the end of the day, taking care of 12 children, she still has to perform her wife's duties to her husband when they get to bed at night.

Dr. Bawa: What if she says no?

Rachel Detweiler: The husbands oftentimes will force them. I mean, that's not gonna be that all of them do that, but I've heard of testimonies where there's girls that are there working because they just had a baby and they hear the woman screaming downstairs in the bedroom because obviously we all know what happens when a man and a woman are in bed and a woman screaming, and it's not a it's not an orgasm scream. It's a rape scream.

Dr. Bawa: How common is this?

Rachel Detweiler: I mean, from my own mother's experience, I know she wasn't allowed to say no. I never I never heard you know, my dad wasn't now that I know abusive we never heard her scream. But later on, after we were brought in out of how she talked about she had to fulfill his duties didn't matter how tired she was.

Dr. Bawa: Do all Amish teenagers get a temporary get off the farm pass to go explore the world at 18?

[12:17] Leaving to Explore the Outside World

Eli Yoder: No, we actually were not allowed to go explore the world at all. We were very old order and they would not even actually didn't do any fellowship with other Amish churches that practiced this season of going out to explore. So we were so sheltered, we were not allowed to do that.

Dr. Bawa: In other Amish communities that do allow it, how many actually come back to the fold?

Eli Yoder: I would say quite a few. I'd hate to put a percentage on it, but the ones that do go back to the Amish afterwards, a lot of them leave a second time because it seems like when they go back into that lifestyle, they really missed what they had, that freedom that they felt. So I my own brother actually left the second time. And I'd say probably I would put maybe 90% on it that do go back, end up leaving again anyway.

Dr. Bawa: Are entire families leaving or just people here or there?

Eli Yoder: It's very rare for entire families to leave. I think I know of only one actually. Usually it's just a couple of them leaving here and there. I have one brother that left out of a family of 10 siblings, but it's very rare. Usually there's one, two, or three out of a family that leave.

Dr. Bawa: Now, Rachel D. You left with your husband. How did that work?

[13:28] Rachel Detweiler Leaves With Her Husband

Rachel Detweiler: Well, my husband was always kind of a troublemaker in church. So he got picked on all the time for not following the rule. And I had siblings that had left quite a few of my siblings that left before I was married. And so just seeing their freedom and seeing what they have made me think that maybe it isn't that such a bad thing to leave. and we started, you know, we started reading our Bible, we started doing research on who the Amish really are, and realizing that it's not a bad thing to leave the Amish.

Dr. Bawa: Are people usually leaving when they're very young or even older?

Rachel Detweiler: There's nowadays I would say older people it's happening more so than it did ten years ago when we left.

Dr. Bawa: And if a spouse leaves, can the remaining spouse marry again?

[14:27] Marriage, Divorce, and Returning to Visit

Rachel Detweiler: If they're still in the Amish community, no, they can't.

Dr. Bawa: So even if their spouse has left, they have no chance at a happy marital life with anybody else ever again because they consider still married.

Rachel Detweiler: Yeah. The only way that they could marry again is if their spouse that left them would pass away, or that's the only way that they could marry again in the Amish community.

Dr. Bawa: Is divorce ever allowed? Is it ever an option?

Rachel Detweiler: No, absolutely not.

Dr. Bawa: So you basically marry for life, one way or another, for better or for worse.

Rachel Detweiler: Yes. That's their way of practice.

Dr. Bawa: And once they leave, can they come back to visit?

Rachel Detweiler: They can come back to visit, but they're not involved in weddings, they're not involved in family gatherings, they're they're not involved in any of the important things. coming back to visit for a little bit, that's allowed.

Dr. Bawa: Eli, how did it work for you?

[15:25] Eli Yoder’s Rules for Visiting Home

Eli Yoder: Well, my mother actually told me I had to wear Amish clothing to come back and visit. And my dad really didn't care. I snuck around and met him a few times without Amish clothing, and he never even had a problem with it. But my mother, still to this day, 24 years later, I have to wear Amish clothing to come out and visit, and I have to park my car somewhere else and walk because she will not tolerate, you know, seeing a car, her son driving a car. And also I have to wear a straw hat, my Amish hat that I kept because she said that it my worldly haircut, she just cannot, it makes her sick to her stomach. I have to wear a hat. I can't show up just showing my haircut.

Dr. Bawa: So, how often do you get to go back home?

Eli Yoder: Right now, she has limited me to one time per year, and that's when I put my Amish clothes on. I just did last month, I went and visited her, and then so I can't go again until next year in October.

Dr. Bawa: And this was her decision, not the church's decision.

Eli Yoder: That is correct. It was her decision because she wants to honor her dad. He was a very religious bishop, one of the main bishops in our Amish community. So she always wanted to follow her dad's example, and that's what he did, and that's how he treated ex-Amish, and that's why she is much more strict than what other women would be.

Dr. Bawa: When I have spent time around the Amish, I've noticed that they make no eye contact, and many of them don't even smile amongst each other. How common is depression amongst the Amish?

[16:48] Depression, Alcohol, and Lack of Mental Health Care

Eli Yoder: Yeah, depression was actually very common in our Amish community. I'd say probably 40 to 50 percent of people had those kinds, like you described there, where they just kind of seemed dull, not smiling a whole lot, not joking, they just kind of seemed to keep to themselves. And my father actually had such deep depression, and so did his dad. It was kind of a generational thing. And it got so bad that he turned to alcohol to try to numb the pain. And so obviously the church would excommunicate him, shun him, you know, for four to six weeks. And he just didn't get the proper help.

Eli Yoder: You know, if he'd have got professional counseling, which they did not offer in our community, we did not have any licensed counseling for people that struggle with any kind of alcoholism or depression. So my father actually got so depressed to where at one point he was excommunicated from the church for an entire year and he cut his own hair off. And so they just kept adding to his shunning. And he didn't even eat with us family members, you know, in the house. He had to sit separately. And so I saw that quite a bit. But the problem was when it came to depression, it got so bad that when they shunned him, he got even worse in his depression. And then eventually he ended his life by committing suicide.

Dr. Bawa: That's really heartbreaking. And I know I saw one of your videos on TikTok about it. Please tell our listeners what happened when it came to his burial.

[18:07] Eli’s Father’s Burial and Grave

Eli Yoder: Yeah, because he died of suicide, they judged him by saying, hey, that is murder. You cannot be buried with the rest of the Amish that are in the cemetery. At first, they actually told my mother that they were going to bury him completely outside of the Amish cemetery. But my mom did come back and say something about, hey, I would really like maybe the opposite side of the cemetery, but inside. So they went with that plan. So they buried him separately in the corner and then they put a fence around the corner to block him in. I was already former Amish at that time. So when this happened, I actually went out and tore the fence down. Then they put another fence up and I tore it down.

Eli Yoder: So right now there's no fence around him, but he he is buried separately in the corner of the cemetery.

Dr. Bawa: And it appears that people are still desecrating his grave.

Eli Yoder: Yes, I have put up flowers over five times now. Well, my one of my friends did it the sixth time. And just to give me kind of a peace, you know, I just like to go out and visit him and put some nice flowers on there. I've put real flowers and fake flowers, but every time we've done that, the Amish have showed up and destroyed all the decorations and flowers that I have put there. They're not necessarily against flowers, but because they do grow them and sell them to outsiders. But there's no decorations allowed on the grave. So even though he's separate, they condemn him, they judge him. They still will not allow the former Amish like me to come out and put decorations on my father's grave.

Eli Yoder: So I've been setting up cameras because I did talk to the Sheriff's Department about this issue, and they did tell me that they're not above the law, that if I catch them on a camera, like a deer cam or something, where it's proof that they did it, then they're willing to go press charges.

Dr. Bawa: So this tells the other Amish that they really have no chance of getting any mental health help because if they do, they'll be shunned. Look at how they're treating your dad, even in death.

Eli Yoder: Yes. Yeah. And there are several communities I know of now that do have like count, they call it counseling, but it's just an Amish group that talks to an individual that is depressed and they try to get you to reprogram you to think the Amish way. And there's no medication, obviously, they're unlicensed. So they just kind of try to really get you to submit to the church in their ways.

Dr. Bawa: And ladies, have you gone back home and spent time with your families?

[20:21] Rachel Hirschberger Hawley Returns Home

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: Oh, yes, I did. I obviously, when I was 16, I left. And so I was very young. And by the age of 17, I went back home and I visited my mom and dad. And at one point, my dad told me to go upstairs and change my clothes and that I am staying. And that was probably the first time that I ever stood up against my dad and told him really how I felt. And I just told him that basically people don't even know that, at the time I left, I didn't feel like anybody even would miss me. And I still felt that way. And I said, a lot of people just don't understand. And he kind of backed down a little bit. And after that, I was prepared every time I went out to visit that my dad would possibly try to lock me in a room or anything like that.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: So until several years went by and he realized that I was not coming back, I was not coming back to stay at all, is when I started trusting my dad that he wouldn't use and keep me there by force. And then once I turned 18, I also knew my rights and I knew that I did not have to stay there. But when I was 16, I knew that I was underage. I knew that if I would get in any trouble or anything like that, they would make me go home. So I lived a pretty straight life when I first left, not to get myself in any trouble. So I would not have to stay there.

[21:51] How Rachel Detweiler’s Family Reacted to Leaving

Rachel Detweiler: So for as far as for me, my dad had passed away before we had left the Amish. But my mom always welcomed all of her siblings to come home after we left. So she actually came to my house and stayed at my house for a little bit. And I had a really good relationship with her. But I remember how my dad acted whenever my other siblings came home. He would just sit there with his head down. He would hardly look at them and just act like they were he didn't know who they were. It was it was almost as if he was so angry at them because he couldn't control them anymore because that was his that was his way of for his children was to beat them into fear that they would fear him and be under his control. And so he was very, very strict on whenever they left the Amish.

Rachel Detweiler: I mean, he would sit at the supper table or at the dinner tables and he wouldn't eat. He would just sit there and cry and cry and cry, like if they died. But then when he forced finally he would force me to come back home because my oldest brother that left first, he was underage. But when he came back home, it the abuse was so great again, so big and so much that he just he left again. And it would just be a constant role play of the same thing over and over. And every time they left, he would mourn and cry and just act like they're again like there was a funeral, like they died.

Rachel Detweiler: And I don't I honestly now I think it was more because he was embarrassed of what other people will think about it that his children that he can't control his household, because that's something that the Amish families really look down upon, especially the parents, if their children run away, then they look down upon as they can't control their children. There's something wrong with them, they're not they're not being harsh enough with them.

Dr. Bawa: Let's talk about incest. It's clearly a problem in the Amish community. Since much of what goes on goes unreported, how big a problem is it?

[24:09] Incest and Sexual Abuse

Eli Yoder: Yeah, incest is actually on the rise. There's a lot of old order communities, the more strict ones, orthodox type, they have that problem way more than some of the newer order Amish because the again, because of a lack of education, sex education, there's sometimes when hormones are changing, they will do something not necessarily understanding maybe how bad or how wrong or how evil that may be. And sometimes they'll do an incest act with their own sisters. You know, I have personally interviewed former Amish girls that on YouTube and Facebook where they would share those personal stories, how their brothers would, sometimes three, four, or five brothers, sometimes an uncle, sometimes a dad that would have intercourse with them.

Eli Yoder: And I also have an uncle that is still Amish, and he actually got his mentally challenged daughter pregnant at one time and father two babies with her. And he actually told the Amish church that his former Amish sons that had already left the Amish, he was blaming them. And the church simply believed him. So just my own experience is how much incest that I saw, I think it is it is way higher because it's only it's only the ones we know of. It's a few we know of, but there are how many do we not know of? Because only the ones we know of are the ones that got busted.

Dr. Bawa: So it's not just an issue where siblings are having incestuous relationships, it's father and child as well.

Eli Yoder: Yes, that is correct. There's father and child. There's also a couple of bishops that have been confessing their sins to the Amish church for actually getting their granddaughters pregnant. And so it goes all the way up to the elders. I mean, I know a 66-year-old pastor that got busted as well, and he had to make it right with the church. And only a few, sadly, only a few actually get reported to outside law enforcement to where there's justice. And that's probably my biggest goal as a former Amish is to make that awareness and educate law enforcement so that they know that these things do happen secretly behind closed doors.

Dr. Bawa: How often is incest consensual?

Eli Yoder: First of all, before I answer that, what does the word consensual mean?

Dr. Bawa: Where both parties are willing to do it, where there's consent.

Eli Yoder: Yeah, there I would I don't know if any of them were there was consent where both would be okay with doing it. It's usually the boy or the man doing that, making her do it, because the women are very much brainwashed to be very, very submissive. And so I think most generally they will give in to the boy if the boy says so, or the adult man, if he says to obey, then and if you don't, then this and this and this is going to happen to you. So normally it's never consent by her, it's always the man forcing her to do it.

[26:54] Physical Abuse Inside the Home

Dr. Bawa: What about physical abuse? I've heard some horror stories about physical abuse within the Amish as well.

Eli Yoder: Yeah, there was actually a lot of physical abuse. That is part of my testimony. I saw it at a very young age. I think I was only about two and a half or three years old. And the reason I can't get it out of my mind is because my mother was being beaten so bad that she was laying there lifeless. And I remember my dad would take his vest off and he took it around my mom's throat and he would put a knot into it and pull it, where her face turned blue. And me and all of my siblings, my brothers and sisters, were hiding underneath furniture and chairs. And we ended up believing, we were under the belief because mom turned blue that she was dead. It was only about three hours later that she finally came to.

Eli Yoder: I still don't understand how she pulled through that, but dad would I'd say probably it's a very small percentage where he actually got busted the way he had to make it right with the church. But a lot of the abuse, the physical abuse in the house, he was never held accountable for that because we were told we couldn't call law enforcement. We were told we don't call those worldly English folks. So we just watched that play out. And if if we wanted to tell anybody about it, we had to go to the church and tell the church about it.

Dr. Bawa: But it doesn't appear that the church really is fixing anything. I think it's more a case of putting band-aids on the problem and quote unquote forgiving these people, but they're not helping improve the situation for their people.

Eli Yoder: Yes, that is correct. It is basically putting a bandage on them. You know, sometimes they'll increase it from four to six weeks of being in the band, the shunning period. Sometimes they'll go to eight weeks, but just because you add to the shunning period, it's not fixing the problem because you have repeat offenders. I mean, I saw my dad do it over and over, and he just wouldn't stop.

Dr. Bawa: The Amish always talk about nonviolence, about turning the other cheek. Yet inside the homes, the men are abusing their women quite often, it appears.

Eli Yoder: Well, it certainly was in our family. I want to believe that a lot of families that were smiling and pretending to be happy. I hope it wasn't happening there, but I do know I had cousins, I had friends in school that would share their experiences sometimes. And so I knew that it wasn't just our home.

[29:04] Cheating, Forgiveness, and Punishment

Dr. Bawa: Do Amish couples cheat?

Eli Yoder: Yes, yes, it did happen. There's quite a bit of Amish men that have been caught cheating, and not necessarily just with other Amish women. I'd say the majority of the ones I'm aware of got caught red-handed cheating with an English women—the worldly people; we called everybody who was not Amish “English”, that they would get caught, you know, with an English woman and had committed adultery. And usually the wife is almost always, and I know very few women that cheated, but it seems to always be men that cheated. And if it was with an English woman, then she was told that she had to forgive him after that shunning period that he had to go through.

Eli Yoder: And I know a few women that were unwilling to forgive, and they were very angry and bitter, and the church actually gave them six weeks in the shun in the shunning period because they were unwilling to forgive the husband for doing that act.

Dr. Bawa: So the wives were punished because they weren't okay with their husband cheating.

Eli Yoder: That is correct.

Dr. Bawa: That makes no sense at all. But I guess in the Amish community, it makes complete sense.

Eli Yoder: Yes, they are very big on forgiveness. They say that the Bible says to forgive, so you must forgive no matter what the crime. And I even knew, I even know of a few incest stories where the man was caught by the wife. The wife went to the church and reported this. So he was held accountable, went through the shunning process, and then she was shunned as well. And people were asking, why is she being shunned? Then the bishop announced that she was the reason why her husband had incest sexual relations with his own daughters, because she did not, the wife did not fulfill her duties to please the man. So she had to take the blame for why the daughters were being treated this way with incest by the husband.

Eli Yoder: So she was told by the church she must do better to fulfill his sexual needs so that she doesn't turn on to the daughters.

Dr. Bawa: And the general community is okay with this? Does make sense to them?

Eli Yoder: This is what they inherited. They don't know any better. This is where their forefathers operated this way in the church, and the Old Order church has always done it this way. They inherited this system and they believe it's the right system. They vote on these rules, they vote on this punishment, and that is what they continue to practice. And they just they really actually, to be honest with you, don't know any other way because they believe they are God's church and therefore they're gonna keep everything in the church and deal with it in the church.

[31:41] Outside Law Enforcement and Reporting Abuse

Dr. Bawa: Now, most of these people realize that there's an alternate way, that you know, the quote unquote English have a very different life, that they have rights. How is that changing the Amish community of today?

Eli Yoder: Yes, it they do know that there is law enforcement, they know there's a justice system, they know there's judges out there, and there are some New Order Amish. I'm so blessed to see how some of them are now doing mandated reporting. Some of them have reached out to me when they saw my videos and they are starting to do what is right. They'll actually make every member of the church, if they have committed incest or or physical abuse or whatever it may be, they're making them actually go and confess it to the police department, go through that process first. And then when they get out of jail, they'll come home and go through the Amish shunning process.

Eli Yoder: So, yes, most of them, more so now than even 10 years ago, are aware that there's a justice system and go through the police and report it. Now, even us, when we got up to 16 and 17 years old, I have two brothers that ended up taking matters in their own hands. They saw our father lay hands on my mom and they ran to the English neighbors and called 911. Well, when the cops showed up, my mom was all bruised up, black and blue. My dad was arrested for domestic violence. He did six months in jail, and then when he got home, he had to go through the church punishment. But here's what the church told us why did you boys call the law? We take care of that.

Eli Yoder: If we would have been baptized at that moment as a church member, we would have gotten punishment and put in the ban for calling the law.

[33:13] The Idyllic Image Versus Life Behind Closed Doors

Dr. Bawa: This just blows my mind. And you know what's interesting is that, like I said earlier, when we look at the Amish and they're going along in their buggies and they're in their fields, and they're baking great Amish desserts and whatnot, they just seem like such a happy community. They seem so peaceful, like they're not sullied by the world outside. They don't need technology, they don't need this and that. And they look just deceptively happy.

Eli Yoder: Yes, yeah. We were very much told to always at a very young age, I was told that, you know, always smile, always wave. That's the thing that you're supposed to do to all the non-Amish people. We're supposed to show them that this is the way to live. This is what Christians look like, my mom always said. You know, you gotta wave, you gotta smile, you gotta be friendly to them, but don't dare talk about our rules and how the church operates.

Dr. Bawa: It's clearly a difficult life.

[34:10] Differences Between Old Order and New Order Communities

Eli Yoder: Yes, it's it's a very difficult life, especially in the conservative, very old order groups where I come from. I have met a lot of Amish that are not near the level of strictness and old order like I come from. And it actually made me wonder if I had known about some of those when I was 18, I would have considered joining them because they were allowed to have a lot more things, you know, and they just had, you know, I got busted and got for riding a bicycle, and they told me I disqualified for Amish baptism, and that is when I left the Amish at age 18. But then I'm seeing all of these New Order Amish having bicycles. And I thought, well, that's not fair. They're being told they can get to heaven with a bicycle, but I was told I'd go to hell for having one.

Eli Yoder: So yeah, there's a lot of communities where I think it would have been much more pleasant to be Amish and live the lifestyle if I'd have been in one of one of those other communities.

Dr. Bawa: Do you regret leaving?

[35:02] Do They Regret Leaving?

Eli Yoder: No, no, absolutely not. A lot of people have asked me if I'd regret. I do not. I enjoy my happiness, my freedom. I'm free. I have my own family now out here in the English world, and I have absolutely zero, zero, zero desire to go back into the Amish.

Dr. Bawa: And now you're driving a truck, the exact opposite of everything you did before.

Eli Yoder: Yes, now I'm driving a semi-truck, and sometimes when I'm going right past my Amish brothers and my mom's house, I honk my air horn. And when I visited my mom this last month, I asked her, I said, Do you know that semi-truck with the black cat that goes by and honks? She goes, Yeah, is that you? And I said, Yes. And then she kind of got a sad face, and she said, I just wish that's she said, I just wish you wouldn't drive that worldly truck, she said.

Dr. Bawa: Ladies, tell me about your story. Do you regret leaving?

Rachel Detweiler: Absolutely not. I always say I wouldn't ever want to go back to that lifestyle. I don't regret the things we were taught, the hard work ethics we were taught. Our reason for getting out is because we wanted a better lifestyle for our children. We didn't want our children to grow into the sexual abuse, physical abuse, and all of that because honestly, the sexual abuse starts in the schools already for these young kids, the big eighth-grade boys prey on the little first grader girls. And I've heard testimonies where actually one of my sisters, it happened to her in school, and she came home and told my mom. And my mom thought that she just didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't, she didn't necessarily believe her. So I do not regret it.

Rachel Detweiler: I honestly feel sad for my siblings that are still Amish that they don't see the freedom that they still have to live in that lifestyle to still have a live a full, happy life.

Dr. Bawa: Well, I'm glad you got out. I really am because you're clearly happier where you are now.

Rachel Detweiler: Yes, we are very much happier than where we would have been staying Amish. and like I said, we have five, we have five children, and we talk very openly to our children about sex, about things that can happen and what you do and what you don't do. When you know, my daughter or our daughter is 13 and our next child is 12, and they're coming up to that age where their body is changing, and the goal is to be a safe place where they can come with any questions they have. They never have to go through what I went through. I cannot imagine, and I've thought about this many times already, what was happening to me at the age of 13. I cannot imagine catching my children, my boys doing to my daughter what my brothers did to me.

Rachel Detweiler: I just I it makes me sick to my stomach to think about it. And then another part of me is so joyous that God saved me from that, that He opened my eyes and I was able to find a better life for my children.

Dr. Bawa: Bravo to you, my friend. Bravo. I am so glad you got out. You're clearly so much happier now. So, Rachel H, let's talk about you. Would you go back?

[38:17] Why Rachel Hirschberger Hawley Knew She Would Leave

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: Absolutely not. I'm very happy that I left. When I was very young, I watched my mom struggle with all five of her children getting poisoned, and she was unable to protect us. And I watched that, and I knew at that time that I was never gonna have an Amish family because I was not going to be able to protect them. And then I also watched my sister get blamed when she was raped. They do a lot of victim blaming and silence them. So for those reasons alone, I was never going back. I never will. I'm very happy that I made, God gave me the strength at a very early age to not believe in their lies that we're going to go to hell if we leave and it's the only way to live. I knew that if I ever had a family, I would want to protect them. And so that is part of my story.

Dr. Bawa: And you founded the Amish Rescue Mission. Tell us about that.

[39:19] Founding the Amish Rescue Mission

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: Yes. A 12-year-old little girl got pregnant by one of her four brothers in Missouri. And that's when I pretty much said, God, I'm listening. What can we do? And so before that, when I left at age 16, I kind of just left all the Amish world behind. I wanted nothing to do with any of it. But 30 years later, God brought me back and brought me into just made me aware of some of the things that was happening, this little 12-year-old girl getting pregnant. And that is when Amish Rescue Mission kind of started. I decided that maybe we need to educate the children. And so I made a safe touch, not safe touch poster because every poster that I looked at talked about not letting anybody touch their bathing suit or underneath their stuff like that.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: And it didn't, I knew right away that the Amish children don't wear bathing suits, so they don't know what that is. So I made my own. And that is how Amish Rescue Mission started. But now it's led to a hotline, safe houses, and Pennsylvania Dutch interpreters. We have added a lot of things to this.

Dr. Bawa: So now people actually have a resource to go to.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: That is correct. They can call us at 888-621-1985, and every one of those people that are answering the phones can speak Pennsylvania Dutch. So these children can call in if they have anything happening and they don't know the English language very well.

[40:55] How Outsiders Can Recognize and Report Abuse

Dr. Bawa: Now, most of the people listening to this are not Amish. So how can the average listener be more conscious of abuse? How can they recognize it better?

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: It's just like anything else. If you see something, please say something and don't overlook just because they are Amish. There have been incidents in Ohio where they would see blood running down little girls' legs and they would just look away saying, Oh, the Amish will take care of it. And so we are, in a very nice way, coming out and educating the local communities that live around the Amish and just ask them for their help. Because if you see something, please say something or do something about it. Don't overlook it because these children do not have access to phones. They do not have access to internet. They do not have access to, well, most of them don't have access to videos. They don't know what's happening to them.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: So it really takes a community of people to just look. And like you said, these girls that do not look you in the eye, these girls that do not smile, there's a reason for that. You know, you have to ask yourself, what is going on? What is going on in their home life that would just make children just not wanting to smile? Because children normally they're fun, they're happy, they're bouncing around, probably causing some trouble. And if they're not doing that, something is wrong. And so we need to just open our eyes, say something, and do something about it. And if you go to law enforcement and they give you the general answer of, oh, the Amish take care of it themselves, then come to us.

Rachel Hirschberger Hawley: Come to us because we will cause the community to actually take a look at this, because that is also what happens a lot. A lot of these cases get reported, and the sheriff will literally say, the Amish take care of it themselves and do nothing. And that is how these children are falling through the cracks, and that is another reason Amish Rescue Mission is doing what we are doing because nobody's really helping them.

[43:11] Amish Rescue Mission and Eli Yoder’s TikTok

Dr. Bawa: Well, God bless you for doing the work you're doing. And Eli is doing a lot of work for you as well. I mean, that's how I found you through his TikTok. So, Eli, what is your TikTok so that people can go get educated about all these different issues?

Eli Yoder: Yes, my TikTok is Yoder Toter 40, Y-O-D-E-R, T-O-T-E-R 40. And I just talk about anything and everything on my personal experience growing up, the church, how the church operates, a little bit of everything.

Dr. Bawa: Thank you so much for the work you do. And thank you so much for coming to the Dr. Sex Fairy Podcast today and for discussing all this with me. I am sure that we are all better for it. I am sure that now we will never quite see the Amish life as idyllic and utopian as I mentioned. There's pain there, and I'm glad that we are now more conscious of it. So thank you so very much.

Rachel Detweiler: You're welcome. Thank you for having us.

[44:07] Final Thoughts

Dr. Bawa: That was both an incredibly interesting and incredibly disturbing conversation. Abuse, incest, and other dysfunction can exist anywhere, and we should be aware that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. We must always keep our eyes and our hearts open for those who need our help. And to those of you experiencing abuse in any of its many forms, get help. Life is too short and too beautiful to not run free. Until next time.

[44:41] Recorded Outro

Dr. Bawa: I hope you enjoyed the Dr. Sex Fairy podcast today. I would love to continue this conversation with you. If you would like to get in touch with me, email me at askme at drsexfairy.com. Don't forget to follow this podcast and leave me a five-star review. And make sure you follow my blockbuster-hit TikTok account, Dr. Sex Fairy.