Ep. 14 - Sex and Religion

[00:08] Introduction: Sex and Religion

Host: Dr. Kanwal Bawa | Guest: Dr. Christopher Ryan Jones | Runtime: 31:45 | Published: March 14, 2022

Dr. Bawa: Welcome to the Dr. Sex Fairy podcast. I'm Dr. Kanwal Bawa, and I am here to transform your life. Today I have the honor of interviewing Dr. Christopher Ryan Jones. Dr. Jones is a clinical psychologist and sex therapist. He has his own podcast called Sex Therapy with Dr. Jones. He is also the chair of the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists Special Interest Group on Sexuality and Religion. Dr. Jones is an expert in the field, and I invited him into the studio today because either our faith is getting in the way of our sex life, or our sex life is getting in the way of our faith.

Dr. Bawa: It's a complicated issue, and who better to discuss it with us than Dr. Jones? Welcome, welcome, Dr. Jones. Thank you so much for being here today.

Dr. Jones: I'm always happy to talk with you. It's so good to be here.

Dr. Bawa: Thank you, sir.

[01:12] How Religion Shapes Sexuality

Dr. Bawa: So let's start with question number one. How does religion influence people's sexuality, in your opinion?

Dr. Jones: We see this so many different ways. Either a person has contradicting feelings about religion because they grew up in a very religious home, which shaped and formulated their worldview when it comes to sex. What is appropriate sexual behavior? What isn't appropriate sexual behavior? What the do's and don'ts are, if you will. And this a lot of times shapes and forms a person's view of sex, and sometimes their desire is different than what they believe or the way that they were taught. This is, and I know people who are listening, they are immediately thinking and/or could maybe easily understand this is particularly true when it comes to, like, LGBTQ issues.

Dr. Jones: Some people who grow up in very conservative Christian homes and who have later decided that their sexual orientation is that they are same-sex attracted, and so they have a problem because their faith teaches very much against this. However, that's not the only type of problem we see. Sometimes we see people who are very religious and who are married, and in most religions, once you're married, all bets are off. Do whatever you'd like to with your partner, right? But they have a problem because they say, Well, I'm a religious individual. In Judaism, we'd say a frum individual. We'd say, I'm very observant.

Dr. Jones: How can I be spiritual and be sexual at the same time? And so even though it's permitted, they have trouble connecting the two.

[02:58] Orthodox Judaism and Sexual Health

Dr. Bawa: I find that I'm seen as a bit of a disruptor in my own neighborhood. My practice, Bawa Medical, is in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, and none of my neighbors come to me. I find that unfortunate. I really didn't see that coming, because don't Orthodox Jewish people also have sex and sexual dysfunction?

Dr. Jones: They do. They do. And I would say that you have a couple problems in dealing with this population. One is that you're not Jewish. We would love to have you as part of the tribe. No, I'm just kidding. We don't proselytize.

Dr. Bawa: I'm nice. I'm nice.

Dr. Jones: But the issue is, especially in really, really ultra-Orthodox communities, someone who is not Jewish could be seen as a danger. And the reason you could be seen as a danger is because you could teach something contrary to what their rabbi does, what their rabbi teaches, okay? And so, a lot of times, ultra-Orthodox clients will only see therapists or doctors who are ultra-Orthodox, meaning that they understand halacha, which is Jewish law. And so that they feel more comfortable that that clinician wouldn't do anything that violates Jewish law. But you are right that some religions are more conservative and sex negative.

Dr. Jones: I will say that most people in sexology would say that when it comes to religion, Judaism is the more sex-positive faith. Traditionally and technically, sex in Judaism is not a sin, but once you have sex with the person you're married to them. So the idea of premarital sex isn't really there. But you are right, even within the Orthodox community, in Jewish Orthodox community, the biggest issue that I often see is unconsummated marriages. Why? Because they're terrified to have sex, because they're saying, How can I still be a very religious and observant person and still be a sexual person? We see problems with vaginismus.

Dr. Jones: Again, this has to do with anxiety, right? Like, because you're like, again, how do I be this religious person and be this sexual? How do I let myself go sexually even though I'm with my partner? And I see a lot of Rapid ejaculation. Again, the same reason.

[05:25] Sex-Negative Religious Traditions

Dr. Jones: There are some very sex-negative religions. I don't mean to offend anybody when I say sex-negative, but oftentimes Christianity is labeled as sex-negative. I mean more, when I say Christianity, I want to specify that we're talking more like fundamentalist evangelical Christians are seen as sex-negative. That's not saying all of them are, but as a whole, they have a lot more restrictions. And I want to preface this too, because I don't believe just because you have rules and boundaries for sex that that means you're sex-negative, because I think boundaries are good, like in any healthy relationship.

Dr. Jones: But when it comes to some fundamentalist groups, for example, you can only have sex if you're procreating. These ideas, you cannot talk about sex. If we look in the U.S., a lot of states within the Bible Belt have the worst sex education or no sex education at all because they say it is against their religious freedoms or that it violates their religious beliefs concerning sex. Interestingly, these are the same states with the highest number of unwanted pregnancies and STI transmissions. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[06:42] Sex, Marriage and Jewish Tradition

Dr. Bawa: You know, there was that show on TV for many years. What was that called? The Duggar family, 100 Kids and Counting, I'm exaggerating, but you know which one I'm talking about, 19 Kids and Counting or whatever it was. I remember hearing something where the couple said that sex was for procreation, and so they did not use birth control. And I thought, when does this end? I mean, when are you going to stop having kids? It's getting ridiculous. So I absolutely get what you're saying, where sex is seen as a means to an end. But not something to be enjoyed for itself.

Dr. Jones: And actually, New Testament text pretty much says this. The Apostle Paul says, I wish that you would remain single, but if you must, like if you have no other choice, then, you know, you can do this because it's better to marry than to burn, right? Like, that's a terrible way to think about this. Judaism has a different view. Judaism takes the view that the very first commandment given by God was to be fruitful and multiply, meaning to have sex. And in Judaism, sex isn't just for procreation. A man is required, even after his wife has menopause, to continually sexually fulfill her.

Dr. Jones: In fact, the agreement that a man will sexually fulfill his wife is in the ketubah, which is the marriage contract that a Jewish man gives to his wife when they get married. He agrees to make sure she has clothes, food, and sexual fulfillment.

Dr. Bawa: I love that.

Dr. Jones: Isn't that great?

Dr. Bawa: Yeah, that's great. We should all be Jewish. This is awesome. No, this is great. I literally had no clue about that part where it's part of the quote-unquote wedding contract. I love it.

Dr. Jones: Marriage contract.

Dr. Bawa: It's awesome.

[08:45] Religion and LGBTQ Identity

Dr. Bawa: So now, how do you think this whole idea of religion is affecting, for instance, the LGBTQ community? Because that's a whole other problem then, because they are seen as, again, like I said, I'm seen as disruptive in certain communities. They are absolutely disruptive to the norm. So what happens there?

Dr. Jones: So, I have, you know, you mentioned before that I teach and I do different things. And I work a lot in theology departments. I'm on the committee for the European Association of Biblical Studies because I work in biblical studies as well as in psychology. And I've had so many people who have come to me who are struggling with their sexual orientation. And some of these are students who their goal in life is to be a pastor of a church, right? This is their goal. And they're struggling now because they're saying, Ah, you know, homosexuality is a sin, but I can't change the way I feel.

[09:51] Conversion Therapy and Internal Conflict

Dr. Jones: And then comes the talk about, like, how some of these fundamentalist groups have things like conversion therapy, where they say that we can pray the gay away is the expression that we sometimes use to joke about this, right? So this causes internal conflict with the person. Like, they struggle with, How do I remain a good Christian, but I'm not attracted to females? And there are some theologians who have come out, who have said, Well, it doesn't matter what you think. God's more concerned with what you do. So you can have all those feelings, just don't act on them.

Dr. Jones: Well, that's like me telling a little kid, you know, not to stick a marble in their nose. The first thing they're going to want to do is stick that marble in their nose, right? Like, it's just how we're wired as people. So there's always been this disconnect, especially when it comes to Christianity and the LGBT community.

[10:57] Spirituality and LGBTQ Belonging

Dr. Jones: This is very unfortunate because it's not just on the side of the Christians either, because there are some Christian organizations and churches that welcome LGBT individuals. And I approach therapy from a very holistic perspective. So I think that a spiritual component in a person's life is very healthy, and that this is something that is common among all people, and I encourage clients to do this. So imagine now you have an LGBTQ client. Maybe they didn't grow up in a church, but they're very active in the LGBT community. And one day they say, You know, I really feel something's missing in my life. I really want to grow spiritually.

Dr. Jones: And they're like, I really want to find a church. Well, because the conflict between religion and the LGBT community has always been there, some of them are very fearful that if they start to explore that area of their life, they will be— cannot think of the word I want, sorry— they are fearful that they will be kicked out of the LGBT community, like they're unwanted anymore. This is really troubling because on the flip side of that, you have young people or older people who are LGBT in the church, and they're fearful if they ever told anybody, they would be excommunicated from their church.

Dr. Jones: So these people are really, they're in a spiritual crisis. Like, how can I connect both pieces when both sides seem to be at odds with each other?

[12:39] Faith Communities and LGBTQ Inclusion

Dr. Bawa: Very well said. And, you know, I recently had the privilege of attending a Black History Month celebration at the Pride Center in Fort Lauderdale. which is our LGBTQ, you know, center here. And it was a very moving service. It was emotional. It was certainly religious, and it was very welcoming to all. And they were LGBTQ of all ages, and I felt really good seeing that we are now able to do that as a society, at least in a little pocket of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Dr. Jones: So I, I'm not the spokesperson for any religion, including my own, right? Like, that's all up to individual communities. But it is very clear that within, and I primarily work with Abrahamic faith, so Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and it is very clear that all three of them have very different ways of looking and thinking about LGBTQ individuals.

[13:39] Islam, Christianity and Judaism on LGBTQ Issues

Dr. Jones: So, for example, in Islam, it's kind of, it's frowned upon, definitely, but it's something that it's more like we know it's there, but we just, we don't really talk about it, okay? Like, get it out of the way. We just don't talk about it. In Christianity, of course, oftentimes this is, like we said, this is very problematic. People have been disowned from their families, right? And I should say, going back to Islam, I'm talking more about how Islam is lived in the West, not so much in the Middle East, even though in certain countries in the Middle East, we do know that it is happening.

Dr. Jones: But due to the political system, it is very illegal. I know of, I had a client one time in Egypt who homosexuality is very illegal because it goes against Sharia law, and the police have sting operations to catch people showing up off of dating apps like Grindr. Like, you agree to meet somebody off of Grindr, you're arrested. You're no longer in medical school anymore. Now you're in prison for several years. Your family will have nothing to do with you anymore. This is problematic, right? Like, this is—and this is one reason why I think we need to be compassionate.

[15:06] Coming Out, Safety and Compassion

Dr. Jones: I get in trouble with the LGBT community personally because I often say that there shouldn't be so much emphasis on the idea of coming out. I'm not telling people not to live authentically, but for some people, coming out to their family or coming out to their community could mean imprisonment, could mean death, could mean ostracization altogether. And so we need to be more compassionate about people's individual circumstances and situations. Back to what I was saying. So Islam particularly, they kind of ignore it, sweep it under the rug. Christianity, it's usually in complete conflict.

Dr. Jones: Judaism, depending on which branch of Judaism you're in, all of orthodoxy does frown upon homosexuality, but you're not excommunicated for being a homosexual. You're still a Jew. You're a Jew. You're a Jew. I don't think this is good, but you're still a Jew. So it's kind of a weird dichotomy that takes place there.

[16:09] Pope Francis and the Catholic Church

Dr. Bawa: I saw the Pope recently, Pope Francis, had very positive things to say about the community, which was nice because he talked about how it's more your actions than your sexual orientation, and that's so true.

Dr. Jones: So, you know, the problem with this is this goes to this theology is it's okay for you to be gay as long as you don't act on it. Like, and I don't know how that's very practical for people. And I also struggle a little bit with Pope Francis, who has walked a very fine line of, like, this idea of, like, social justice and Catholicism at the same time, and making statements like this towards the LGBT community. But at the same time, the Catholic Church does not condone LGBTQ marriages. Like, if you're a gay, lesbian, or bisexual, they will not perform gay marriages. They're primarily against gender-affirming surgeries.

Dr. Jones: They will not allow for the ordination of Catholic priests who are gay, even though we know there are plenty gay Catholic priests.

Dr. Bawa: Yeah, but it's still condemned by the Church.

Dr. Jones: Oh yes, it is.

Dr. Bawa: But I think that him actually stepping out and saying that is a step in the right direction, because at least he's saying that. Nobody else said it before him, and he's gotten in plenty of trouble for even saying that.

Dr. Jones: Sure, sure. Absolutely.

[17:42] LGBTQ Visibility in India

Dr. Bawa: Now, in India— Yeah, and I hope so. Yeah, now I come from India, and we certainly have so many religions: I am Sikh, but there's Hinduism, there's Christianity even in India. There's so many different religions. But I think, as a culture, I don't think that the LGBTQ community has much support. However, they are becoming more and more mainstream now, where it's often seen on TV and, you know, people will give interviews and talk about their partner. It didn't happen 20 years ago, but it is changing.

[18:18] Why Does Anyone Care What Happens in the Bedroom?

Dr. Jones: The question I always have, and I'm always so confused about... Is why anybody cares what someone is doing in their bedroom? Like, to me, I mean, I care because I see them as a therapist, right? Like, I'm a little more concerned. But, like, what my neighbor does, I don't have no clue, and honestly, I really don't care. As long as they're not, like, banging on the walls and screaming all night, they can do whatever they want to, as long as I'm sleeping just fine, right? And I've never understood this fascination where you have to control everyone's sexual behavior.

Dr. Jones: And I think that that is, I think by controlling people's sexuality, you can control the person. We see this with the way that women have been treated throughout the years, right? Like, we think about, like, Victorianism, like, you know, again, it was just procreation. Women only had sex with their husband for procreation. If men wanted to have sex more often, because men have this drive, they would go to a prostitute or sex worker to do these things. And you see this going into the early 1900s with hysteria. Women were diagnosed with hysteria. That's why the vibrator was invented, to reduce position fatigue when stimulating the clitoris, right?

Dr. Jones: Like, we see these, we have these concepts that have really, like, creeped into society that all have a lot to do with controlling someone's sexuality. And that's because when, and I say this often, that when we are sexually aligned, we are not easily contained. We are free, we are confident, right? We are able to express ourselves and to live our more full and free lives. And The way to stop that is to control people's sexuality.

[20:18] Religion and Polyamory

Dr. Bawa: I couldn't agree more. I have another question for you. What is your thought about religion and polyamory?

Dr. Jones: Such a good question. So, I—I'm cautious in how I say this. So, so let's, let's talk about Christianity and Islam when it comes to polyamory, and then I'll throw in a fun story about Judaism and polyamory.

[20:41] What Polyamory Is - and Is Not

Dr. Jones: So, people listening who don't know what polyamory is, polyamory is not polygamy. Polygamy is when one man is married to multiple wives. Polyamory has nothing to do with marriage. It just means that you can have multiple sexual partners, and usually there is some tri- or there's some level of proximity. Like, you know, a lot of people have a primary partner and then they'll have secondary partners, however the case may be. But it is, it is both the male and the female who are not necessarily married who have multiple partners. And then there's polyandry, which is when one woman is married to multiple husbands.

Dr. Jones: We see this a lot in some African nations as well as in the Tibetan area. So, for polyamory, it is not what you're thinking when you think Mormons who—and I mean fundamentalist Mormons—who have multiple wives. And people in the polyamory community get very upset when they hear the word polygamy. I mean, I have never seen people get so upset before in my life. I was speaking to a bunch of, to a polyamorous group, and I mentioned polygamy, and they practically booed me, right? I didn't understand what the dilemma was. And it is because they associate a husband having multiple wives with religion.

Dr. Jones: They associate it with Christianity, and they associate it with Islam, even though in Islam, the allowance for polygamy is based on—it's not really fully based on some Islamic teaching. It's kind of a little bit of a stretch in some cases. At least that's what most people would argue today. So, I have seen couples who have come to therapy. Of course, in Christianity, it's one man and one woman, and so this is fully frowned upon. Sex outside of marriage is fully frowned upon. They say we can't have multiple partners, so it's fully frowned upon. Kind of the same in Islam as well. It's kind of the same in Islam.

Dr. Jones: I know people who are Christians and people who are Muslims who practice polyamory, just like I know Jews who practice polyamory.

[23:04] Judaism, Polygamy and Religious Boundaries

Dr. Jones: I told you I would tell you a funny story about Judaism. In the city that I live in, because we talked about polygamy and Judaism, and in Christianity and in Islam, in the city that I live in, around the year 900, Gershom ben Judah, who was the rabbi here in Mainz, is the one who outlawed polygamy within Judaism. So, not quite 2,000 years ago, that practice stopped primarily. And I know, I know people in Judaism, even people who were married and were becoming rabbinical students, who are very queer, like would even consider themselves gay even though they were married to a female.

Dr. Jones: And the rabbinical school was okay with this, had no problem with this whatsoever until their partner went to an orgy, which was okay. The yeshiva had no problem that a bunch of students were in an orgy, but they found out that this couple were married, and the wife went, and they were going to be rabbinical students, and someone had gone up to the head of this yeshiva and said, Oh, I think it's so progressive you allow her to come and she's married to him and y'all condone polyamory. They got kicked out of yeshiva, like they were done with rabbinical school at that point.

Dr. Jones: So it's a very weird situation with that too.

[24:35] The Reality of Multiple Spouses

Dr. Bawa: I find polygamy exhausting because when I see a show like Sister Wives and the man has four wives, people are jealous of him. I think the poor bastard. I mean, can you imagine having to keep four women happy? That just does not sound like a fun existence, dealing with the whole drama every night.

Dr. Jones: I have often thought to myself, you know, I have trouble with one relationship. And I will tell you this, in Judaism originally, and you'll see in the Hebrew Bible, in the book of Exodus. It did allow for a man to have multiple wives on the condition that the man was able to treat them all equally, meaning he was able to give them food, clothing, sexual fulfillment, all equally.

Dr. Bawa: That sounds exhausting to me.

Dr. Jones: If you had five, six, seven wives, you don't have a night off.

Dr. Bawa: That's my point. My God, the poor guy. I feel sorry for him. I wasn't jealous at all.

[25:42] Polyandry and Cultural Context

Dr. Bawa: And, you know, you talked about polyandry. Fun fact: in India, there's an epic called the Mahabharat, and in the Mahabharat, there was Draupadi, who was married to five brothers. Go figure.

Dr. Jones: That's very interesting. I know in Tibet, in most places where this is practiced, it's usually in agricultural societies, and it's usually because there's such little land that when you couldn't divide it in inheritance, right? Like, so if it's all the same brothers, the land stays in the same family. It's not a big deal. It also really helps with population control. So if you are married to four brothers, because that's usually how polyandry works, you're usually married to all the brothers, it really limits how often you can get pregnant.

Dr. Jones: So the women are pregnant less because they might have four husbands, but they can only be pregnant by one of them at a time.

Dr. Bawa: I wonder how that works technically. I mean, do they stay with one man for X number of months or certain days? How do they figure out who the dad is, or does it not matter in those situations?

Dr. Jones: So in Tibet, this isn't as important. You do have a primary, it's usually the older brother. And actually the men take on what in the West we would often consider feminine roles, like the cooking and the cleaning and the taking care of the kid. The wife goes to work, right? Very different. It's a very different dynamic, but it works for them. So it's kind of interesting to observe how culture changes that.

[27:30] Can You Be Highly Sexual and Highly Spiritual?

Dr. Bawa: So tell me, can people be highly sexual and highly spiritual?

Dr. Jones: One hundred percent. You know, in the Hebrew Bible, there's a word, yada, and it means to know. It means to know sexually. So, like when it says, you know, when we talk about, like, Adam and Eve, and it says, like, Adam knew his wife, meaning to sexually know, the word there is yada. But that word is also used in the book of Hosea when it talks about knowing God. The same word, yada, is used to know about how we can know God. I think Islam has a very beautiful idea about sexuality, of sexuality being very spiritual, right?

Dr. Jones: Like the husband and the wife come together and they can know God through their sexual union. We kind of have this in Judaism too. It's a little bit different the way it's thought of, but it's basically Islam came from Judaism, so it's based on the same idea. But I think that's so beautiful that you can know God through knowing your partner more deeply, right? Like through this sexual connection with your partner. I would take it a step farther. I would say that in all three Abrahamic faith traditions, that they teach that we're created in the image of God, image and likeness of God, right?

Dr. Jones: How can we know God without knowing ourselves? And as we've talked about before, a way to know ourselves is through sexual exploration, understanding our bodies, how our bodies work, and being able to connect with our partners through this wonderful way as well. Sex is the only act in which God works with mankind in the creation process. Tell this to clients all the time because I think that's such a profound way for them to think about this behavior, right? Like they can connect with one another, they can experience pleasure, they can create new life through this beautiful act of sex.

[29:43] How to Connect with Dr. Jones

Dr. Bawa: That is profound. And I am sure many of our listeners will want to get in touch with you and learn more about you. So how can they get in touch with you?

Dr. Jones: So they can visit my website at sextherapypodcast.com. They can also follow us on Instagram at sextherapypod, and I would love to hear from them.

[30:06] Why Psychological Insight Matters in Sexual Medicine

Dr. Bawa: I know that I follow your podcast, and I think they should too. And I learn so much from your podcast. I mean, I am a medical doctor, but for the psychological learning, I come to your podcast because there's so much good information there. And I cannot be a good medical doctor if I don't help my patients with the psychological. And so much of what I do, you know, when they come in, like we talked about on another podcast we've done together, so much about erectile dysfunction.

Dr. Bawa: And how am I to really understand why they're having it without understanding what their story is, be that shame with sex, be that religion and sex. There's so much more to that erectile dysfunction than just the penis and that erection. And so I'm so glad that you have this podcast, and I'm so glad that you came on mine and that we had such a profound conversation. And I'm a fan, and I'm sure you've picked up a few today as well. So thank you.

Dr. Jones: Thank you so much for having me. It was absolutely a pleasure, and I would love to talk with you anytime you'd like.

Dr. Bawa: Anytime, our friend.

[31:29] Recorded Outro

Dr. Bawa: I hope you enjoyed the Dr. Sex Fairy podcast today. I would love to continue this conversation with you. If you would like my top three secrets for amazing sex, send me an email at askme@drsexfairy.com and I will share them with you. Don't forget to follow this podcast and leave me a five-star review. Until next time.